Is Settling in Dating Really a Bad Thing?

when women struggle with men and we could we could flip the genders on this it it doesn't just go both ways uh

0:07

people will say things like I attract the wrong people all the guys I like don't like me all the men who like me I

0:14

don't like and they're really just describing the single condition every single person feels that way about

0:20

dating there's nothing unique about it so if your belief is that you attract

0:26

the wrong people my response is you don't attract the wrong people you select the wrong people you double down

0:32

on the wrong people you're not a magnet it doesn't just happen to you if you

0:37

choose emotionally unavailable men because your dad was emotionally unavailable and you think that one day

0:43

that emotionally unavailable man is going to change because you love him deeply it's your selection process it's

0:48

like buying the wrong food at the supermarket I keep on going in the Cheeto aisle why aren't I losing

0:58

weight [Music]

Meet Evan

1:06

I am very excited to welcome our next guest Evan to quiet the clock podcast uh

1:11

I had the opportunity to speak with him previously and we I know this is going to be a very great episode and he has a

1:17

lot to offer our audience so I appreciate you being here and welcome to quiet the clock thank you so much for

1:23

having me Beth I'm really excited awesome so um you are the very first

1:30

dating coach so I'm so curious to hear about dating when you first started as a

1:36

coach first dating now um well the world's changed

1:42

technology changed I've changed so it's it's uh I don't know where you'd want to

1:47

begin but I started this journey in my mid 20s um when I was looking for love

1:55

and I was an early adopter of online dating and in like the late 9 90 s we

2:00

really been doing this for a long time and I got a job answering phones at an online dating company uh just a temp job

2:07

was a thing to do um to pay the bills while I was in film school at age 29 or

2:13

so and after a year of doing it I realized oh my God I know more about online dating than anybody I'm talking

2:18

to because I'm using the website and I'm talking to people on the phone so uh I'm a writer I I I I wrote I live in

2:25

Hollywood I wrote a book about online dating in 2003 called I can't believe I'm buying this book at Common Sense

2:30

guide to successful internet dating and unlike my Hollywood career the uh book did very well and suddenly I was in USA

2:37

Today in Time Magazine and CNN and um I just hung out my shingle dropped out of

2:42

film School became the dating guy and that was 20 years ago and since then I've I've devoted all my time and energy

2:48

to to taking this this Venture very seriously and it was before there was a

2:53

time that there was social media or dating coaching or dating apps you know

2:58

we were using old school dating sites which I still recommend by the way the match.com type sites I still recommend

3:04

them because they're Superior um but that's another conversation so dating

3:10

has morphed as I've morphed uh you know I I spent 10 years of prolific online

3:15

dating I've now been married for 15 years I've been coaching for 20 and

3:21

so there's no real resemblance to to the way people date now which is the

3:28

gamification of dating wiping on photos and texting it is the world's worst form

3:33

of dating is the predominant form of dating wow that's a that's a that's a hard statement to hear and that's

3:39

interesting because you know I'm a therapist I work with a lot of clients and I don't hear anyone saying they love

3:46

the apps or they love online dating but it is it is the the major platforms or form of doing it um I would love for you

How Evan met his wife

3:54

to share your love story because I think it is really inspiring in a way that you

4:00

know we you and I have talked to about and I want to get to this sort of how we can limit our vision of who is possible

4:07

and particularly if we have a certain pattern we might not have identified or attachment style that we're not clear on

4:14

um I think the way that you w met your wife sort of speaks to being open to someone you might not have considered

4:22

yeah I mean I I I'm a big advocate of online dating right I think online dating apps are problematic but they're

4:28

they're tools to create opportuni so um we may or may may or may not get back into that but I was dating prolifically

4:35

online I went out with I had a count before I wrote my my my book I went out with 300 people um I I was not one of

4:42

those people who who stayed in you know my wife was a serial monogamist you know five years and three years and seven

4:49

years for me it was like three months six months two months I never saw the

4:54

point of staying in a relationship with someone that I wasn't going to marry and so and I I think actually think that's

4:59

the best way of dating right there's no point in changing People no point in wasting anybody's time so I cycle

5:06

through people not knowing really what I was doing I'm not you know I'm not saying I didn't pass up on some really lovely people but as I was iterating and

5:13

learning about myself and what I was looking for uh dialing in my process I

5:18

was coaching and I was giving advice to other people that I realized I wasn't following myself I was a hypocrite right

5:25

and so I'm writing articles from match.com happen magazine about what it's like to be the single dating coach

5:31

who's helping other people and I realized that I wasn't making the right compromises that one needs to make for

5:37

love no compromise has somehow a bad a bad connotation to it right as if

5:43

compromise equals settling and compromise doesn't equal set settling you compromise your way into happiness

5:49

you settle your way into misery right but everything is a compromise your job is a compromise your friends are

5:55

compromised your home is a compromise your family is a compromise right this is one thing where we don't think we

6:00

should compromise the problem is we compromise on the wrong things so I'm online dating prolifically cycling

6:07

through people wondering what's wrong with women what's wrong with match what's wrong with me what's wrong with

6:12

LA all the narratives there was nothing wrong right I just didn't dial in what

6:18

was important in a partner and so I met my wife at a potluck dinner in the

6:24

Hollywood Hills on a Sunday night where I was invited by someone I dated who broken up with me she's like oh we could

6:31

stay friends and I said all right I'll stay friends with you I'll go to your party and in my head I'll go to your

6:36

party and ignore you other people I spent the entire night talking to two

6:43

37y old divorcees uh no was no one was hitting on anybody it was just a lovely

6:48

conversation that happened to last from like 6 at night to midnight we shut down

6:53

the party and I wasn't really interested I wasn't like honing in on either of

6:59

them at the end of the night I knew I had asked for someone's number and so I chose one of them but I didn't feel that

7:05

strongly about it and um we've now been together for 17 years married for 15 and

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even though we're here's the punchline even though I'm an online dating Advocate even though I've written books

7:18

about it even though I coach it we never would have met online even though we

7:23

were both on the same side at the same time and that is a positive about online

7:28

dating this means that we have better control over our own destiny because she wasn't looking for a Jewish guy I wasn't

7:36

looking for a woman who's three years older I want that to have kids starting to date a 38-year old woman is

7:41

questionable but met her in real life we have we we had our two kids uh which we

7:46

may come back to that conversation yeah on paper we don't

7:51

match in real life we connected and online we'd be two ships passing in the night which is why I always encourage

7:57

people to widen their app aperture when they're dating online you may be missing out on someone special because of your

8:03

preconceived notions about what it's supposed to look like yeah and that's my question to you because well one I know

Will Evan work exclusively with women

8:11

you work you know you you're the work that you do is helping women will you work mostly with women correct

8:17

exclusively with women okay exclusively with women so you help them sort of

8:23

widen that view that Vision kind of see maybe someone they wouldn't nor

8:30

consider yes I that's uh when women struggle with men and we could we could

8:36

flip the genders on this it it doesn't just go both ways uh people will say things like I attract the wrong people

8:43

all the guys I like don't like me all the men who like me I don't like and they're really just describing the

8:49

single condition every single person feels that way about dating there's nothing unique about it so if your

8:57

belief is that you attract the wrong people my response is you don't attract the wrong people you select the wrong

9:03

people you double down on the wrong people you're not a magnet it doesn't just happen to you if you choose

9:10

emotionally unavailable men because your dad was emotionally unavailable and you think that one day that emotionally

9:17

unavailable man is going to change because you love him deeply it's your selection process it's like buying the

9:22

wrong food at the supermarket I keep on going in the Cheeto aisle why aren't I losing weight well if you make different

9:29

choices with men your whole life changes so my job is to nudge people by their

9:34

own volition into different choices healthier choices in men lead to

9:40

happiness and when it's the definition of insanity I'm dating for 10 years on and off online I'm so burnt out what's

9:48

wrong it's easy to say it's the app it's the city it's the men it's probably your

Settling is not ideal

9:56

choices yeah and going back to what you were saying earlier about compromise right because I think one of the biggest

10:01

narratives too when we're trying to nudge people and I you know with my clients that are single and do want to

10:06

find love and are out there dating the idea of

10:11

settling is not ideal or they they make that synonymous with compromising or

10:17

they make that synonymous with considering someone else that might not consider and so how do you help your

10:23

clients open up their view make better choices but also not feel like they're

10:29

settling settling is all about how you feel about it that's why I go back to

10:34

feelings I let our feelings guide so here's the great irony of being a male coach for women we can say women are

10:41

more sensitive intuitive higher eqs than men I can't think too many women would

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argue with that no I'm and I'm not arguing with that then why is it that women are more

10:54

likely to ignore their own feelings than men well that okay and that's another question yeah that's a yeah why do we

11:02

I'm dating a guy who has been sleeping with me for six months and his profile is still up and he only texts me once a

11:08

week and you stay and you're really ignoring the feelings of anxiety right that's not on

11:16

him he's not going to dump you he's not going to let you go he's getting his needs met he wants someone once a week that's all looking for you accepted

11:23

those terms so when love you my course I tell women you're the CEO of your love life men are the interns we want guys

11:31

who come in early and stay late we want guys who want the job and it's based on not just the the resume how is he

11:39

performing how do you know how he's performing how do you feel are you walking on eggshells are you afraid of

11:44

speaking your mind are you always wondering where this is going to go are you breaking up and making up these are all horrible signs that people normalize

11:52

so my job is just not to tell women what they want what do you want a

11:57

relationship that's easy do you want a relationship where you could relax do you want a relationship where you're

12:02

cherished if that's the case stop accepting anything less yeah I think

Playing the cool girl

12:08

what's hard about that and I see that so much too and I I love that you said all that and I think you know one of the

12:13

things that we have talked about on here is like this idea of playing the cool girl right so you don't express your

12:18

needs or you don't push or you don't ask for more because you want to seem like you're you know laidback and cool and

12:24

what that is is like what you're saying ignoring ignoring your feelings so I've seen that

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happen quite a bit and it doesn't serve anyone and you know I think women

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do yeah settle for what these types of men right so now we're redefining Beth

12:45

settling settling is being in a relationship where you can't let down your guard where you can't trust where

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you don't know where you stand where you swallow your pride where you bend over backwards where he's not meeting your

12:56

emotional needs settling is not being with with a guy who's 5' n which is I'm laughing because a lot of

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women have that standard in terms of height we're settling compromising on the wrong things can we comprom and this

13:10

is my point this is what I this is my journey it's why I I'm I'm such a fierce advocate for it I my wife and I are

13:17

completely different on paper we're magic in person why because of how we treat each other because of how we feel

13:24

but I'm Jewish she's Catholic she's divorced no one in my family's ever been divorced fored right she comes from

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family of Alcoholics that is not something that we have we're Jewish we argue about everything nobody in her

13:37

family ever speaks their mind about anything we're very very different backgrounds I'm wildly ambitious and

13:45

opinionated she's more easygoing and happy all of it me means compatibility

13:52

it's how the puzzle pieces fit it's not dating your clone and that's what too many people do we try to go online and

13:59

women I work with try to date men who are just like them but better and without their flaws he has to be taller

14:06

and cuter and smarter and richer and funnier and nicer and serer right and so now we've reduced Our

14:13

dating pool to nothing and the truth is your man doesn't have to be this way I

14:19

I'm gonna read you something I know this I'm on a tangent but this this literally happened this morning this is great I love it this happened this morning I got

14:25

a client she's in her mid-60s she's uh retired retiring from her career she's

14:32

done very well for herself she had a terrible upbringing had a terrible marriage like really 25 30 years of

14:40

awful feeling alone dismissed verbally abused just a horrible marriage that she

14:46

finally escaped from and she's very guarded and she's very bitter and in working with me we've taken down some of

14:53

her walls we've gotten in touch with her vulnerability we've given her hope right and we have this conversation all the

15:00

time I don't want to settle I didn't come this far in life to right to take care of a man or be a nurse with a

15:06

person and and we we repeat this conversation over and over I swear to

15:12

God I got this text this morning lol a fisherman who would have thought it was

15:19

a great FaceTime date 10 chemistry 10 uh

15:26

wait was what do we judge it on attraction 10 Comfort 10 fun 10 if it wasn't for

15:34

you if it wasn't for you I never would have given him in a chance he's a boat owner but he's shockingly refined he

15:40

doesn't smoke he doesn't swear he checks all these boxes and I'm still shaking my

15:45

head this is his last season of fishing after 41 years how many women have you

15:50

coached who dated a commercial Alaskan crab boat owner so this is a perfect

15:56

example of a woman who is college educated liberal who had a very very

16:03

narrow slice of what would work for her and in real life she gave an opportunity

16:08

just to talk on the phone with a guy who didn't meet her picture and I'm not

16:15

going to say it's going to go anywhere but it's the exact same story of my wife and I where we never would have met online we met in person we connected and

16:23

all the stuff all the lists go out the window yeah well even if it doesn't go anywhere with this guy I think it's

Validation

16:28

validating to her just know like she opened up her perspective and Viewpoint and like she had this connection so

16:35

whether it hopefully continues to go well for her but even if it doesn't it's a validation that like ah there's like I

16:41

don't have to be so narrow in my choosing Beth I got a question for you yes sure I don't know where this is

16:47

going to go it's always dangerous to ask questions where you don't know the answer like a prosecuting attorney do

16:53

you have friends who are happily married I have to think about um some

16:58

yes yes some no okay the happily married ones

17:04

right just picture them in your mind between you and me I don't know if they're listening to your podcast did

17:12

did each of them compromise on something to forge that relationship did each of them give up something that wasn't on

17:19

their bingo card my bet is that the answer is yes for sure for sure for sure

17:25

and these are the happily married ones right yeah yeah and I I'm in an 8-year relationship I'm not married but very

Marriage

17:31

happy relationship we com compromise constantly and also I you know could

17:37

have used your dating course many many years ago but I probably would say I was a narrow viewed perspective on who was going to

17:44

be the guy and Rob is not anyone I saw myself with but it's we are together

17:50

eight years we have a son it worked beautifully yeah right and and that's sort of the point is we need to

17:55

normalize this we've uh there's a great book called The All or Nothing marriage by Eli fle and he talks about the

18:03

evolution of marriage and what it's turned into and it used to be we're going to have nine kids and six of them will survive and they're going to attend

18:09

to our land and then it became we're going to have a better better life for our kids and we're going to stay

18:14

together under God even if we're miserable with each other right and she can't go anywhere because she has no

18:20

education or money and we've evolved into a society that's really more dating and relationships and love based on

18:27

desire rather than necessity but we've gone too far up the what he calls Mount maslo

18:35

maso's hierarchy of needs right we're not about food Water Shelter anymore

18:41

we're is he spiritual not religious like me right does he does he like cool

18:48

electronic dance music I swear to God this 63 year old woman wants a guy who likes EDM I was like this has nothing to

18:55

do with anything right so we we get so caught up in this narcissism that we

19:00

have to date someone who's just like us that we lose sight of the fact that I

19:06

could hand you a guy who likes skiing and he might be a prick so who cares if he likes skiing I wonder for some women

The Perfect Image

19:13

to and I I think about this in in the lens of my work that we create this like

19:19

Perfect Image to almost protect ourselves right so if it's not going to be the perfect guy with all these things

19:25

I don't have to be vulnerable I'm not going down that road and I'm not to get hurt right but what you're doing on one

19:33

hand you're saying I'm protecting myself from being hurt here's the flip side of it you're also protecting yourself from

19:39

being loved I know I know I know yeah it's so yeah and it's just sort of it

19:47

sounds like the work you do is helping women get out of their own way and open

19:53

themselves up to other possibilities and I'd be curious about your success rate I

19:58

I I tell women this you don't have to change because you know you you go on social media you have all these These

20:05

influen are telling you you have to change you have to you have to straighten your hair you have to do your

20:11

boobs you have to adopt this attitude you have to be a girl boss you have to be all the you don't have to change

20:18

you're delightful as you are don't change change your choice of men that's

20:24

it be you embrace you all the good all the bad

20:30

you can sand off your rough edges it doesn't mean we don't we can't all stand to improve myself included but at the

20:36

end of the day it's about loving yourself accepting yourself being kind to yourself and raising the bar for what

20:42

you expect from your partner and if you keep the bar High not height weight age

20:48

education income character kindness consistency communication

20:53

commitment right if we raise the bar for how does he treat me how does he make me feel

20:58

you're never going to end up in a bad relationship again yeah I give the same advice to my clients when they go on dates is how do they make you feel and I

How Do They Make You Feel

21:06

think a lot of people without having that prompt or that seed planted in their head will go off well do we have

21:13

this interest interest instant spark in chemistry is he good-look does he have this type of job and I'm like whoa whoa

21:18

whoa like did you feel safe did you feel comfortable did you feel like you were able to be yourself and letting those be

21:25

the markers right you you you just nail I mean I love the fact that we speak the same language even though we we barely

21:31

know each other right for for for for women in short term right I'm GNA get to

21:37

share stuff from from my love you course um for first date a lot of women should should I give them a chance should I not

21:42

give them a chance you should never have to talk yourself into going out with a guy a first time a second time this is not something to talk yourself into you

21:49

should want to do it right it doesn't have to be butterflies it should be enjoyable like hanging out with a friend

21:55

so Comfort fun attraction if he scores less than six out of 10 on

22:01

Comfort can I be myself fun was it boring do I want to leave attraction I

22:07

would need 17 beers to kiss this guy if there's no Comfort fund or attraction there's no second

22:13

date easy peasy next next next and in the long run we need a man who makes us

22:20

feel safe heard and understood and if you can date for Comfort fund and

22:27

attraction and in the long run have a man who treats you in such a way that you feel safe heard and understood you might have

22:33

a winning formula no matter what he looks like on paper obviously the

22:38

presumption is that there's attraction otherwise he's not even getting a second date so no one's asking you to bend over backwards to give a chance to someone

22:45

you wouldn't give a chance to certainly no one who's good at dating coaching would ask you to swallow a pill that you

22:50

don't want to swallow for sure I we do speak the same language because I say the same thing I think attraction is is

Attraction is Important

22:57

important uh you had mentioned earlier it should be easy and when I met rob it

23:03

was easy in a way that I had never experienced before there was no overthinking like like you're saying the way I felt like I didn't overthink

23:10

texting I didn't overthink asking or being myself I have had some clients and I'm

23:15

curious if you have two that will equate easy and both men and women will equate easy with

23:22

boring have you seen that in your work do women come to with you my second book is I'm not even Rec commending that you

23:28

go get it because I've done better things but my second book's called why you're still single things your friends would tell you if you promis not to get

23:34

mad and oh my God after and it was it was it was co-written with with with a

23:41

woman it was a he said she said type book and she talked about she talked

23:47

about this thing that and again this is her words not mine the women seem to

23:52

overvalue this complexity right if it's tumultuous it's

23:58

worth fighting for if I'm left guessing where do I stand right if he gives me

24:04

the silent treatment if he shuts me down if I feel gas lit well that's just part of the process of and and she's like

24:13

it's like a chaotic room you could say oh this is really interesting in here I want a fun swing room I want something

24:19

where everything just feels really good right and so in your life if you've had

24:27

a series of tempestuous relationships that feels like roller coasters that's your normal and so anything other than

24:33

that feels foreign but it's the other thing that's healthy it is because

24:39

because think about this in the long run what's the best quality in a husband

24:44

predictable the last thing you want is a guy who you don't know if he's going to wake up next to you you don't know if

24:51

he's going to change his feelings for you you don't know where he stands you can't let down your guard you can't speak your mind the last thing you want

24:58

is a guy who's unpredictable based on his moods and his whims and his character so what does predictable mean

25:06

safe consistent what's another word for safe and consistent

25:11

boring there's a really great therapist I don't know if you know his work or read any of his stuff Stan tctt and he

25:17

talks a lot about attachment style I I have his book uh behind me yeah he's great I like his work um and he talks a

Attachment

25:24

lot about attachment and he says and I agree with this that you're in a sec securely attached relationship you just

25:30

move into the world differently right so when you have that predictability and you have that safe Foundation you got on

25:36

to the world more confidently in your work in your friendships like you just know you someone is there that like you

25:42

can come back to and and trust and rely on I want to share a story really briefly I've never shared this one

25:48

specifically before uh anywhere I remember introducing my close College

25:53

friends guys I've known for many years so I'm 35 so and knew these guys from when I was 20 I introduce them to my

26:00

wife I bring her to New York for a New Year's Eve party and they have a minimal opportunity to get to know her because

26:06

of the context and I remember one of my guys said to me I can't say anything about

26:13

your girlfriend what I can say is you're different with her that's what I want to see right she

26:22

brings out a better part of you and I like the way you show up so that's what

26:27

she brings to your life regardless of who she is right she's good for you yeah

Vulnerability

26:33

well I think it's that safety that allows you to sort of put the walls down and be vulnerable and be more yourself

26:39

yeah you and I talked about this when we spoke previously about sort of the lack

26:45

of vulnerability in dating and I see this in my work and I think and you share with me your thoughts on this as

26:50

well like everyone is not to overgeneralize people are afraid to be vulnerable and I

26:57

think I think that's very problematic because I think what's happening is people are not communicating clearly and

27:03

I have seen it where there was interest on both sides but no one said anything about it so it just sort of you know

27:11

fanned out right and again I can't speak for younger Generations I'm I'm 51 um I

27:21

you know I'm I'm not a native to social media I have I'm on every social media platform but it's not my preferred form

27:27

of communication I think there's something that's very performative that people put out there when everybody is a

27:32

brand and everybody puts their photos out it's just a very different thing than the kind of connections that it

27:38

takes to be effective in the world and in relationships and so know that

27:45

everybody responds to moderation right and this is one of the things that gets

27:50

lost people think that vulnerability is weakness that's an extreme thing and

27:55

vulnerability can be weakness if you go on a first date and you're like I'm so desperate to find a man to impregnate me

28:02

the last four guys have ghosted me I have no confidence in myself please please please right that energy is still

28:09

is not going to be effective and someone will say well well clearly vulnerability doesn't work I dumped all my on his

28:14

plate and he ran away right but being the the I've got it all together I've

28:20

got no problems my life is perfect just look at my feed right that no one could

28:26

connect with that energy either so it is both it is having the confidence right to put yourself out

28:34

there and the vulnerability to allow yourself to get hurt because someone is

28:39

also doing the same to you right when you've been been the person who's been hurt you feel like men are the

28:45

perpetrators how dare men hurt me I'm not letting that happen again here's the

28:51

thing that gets lost 50% of the equation is you think about all the men that you've passed up on swiped left on

28:57

rejected after one date right you you're entitled to do that that doesn't mean you're selfish it doesn't mean you're

29:03

bad this is the nature of dating is giving someone your heart and saying hey

29:09

take care of it and that's all you can do if you refuse to do that you'll never

29:14

get the big reward yeah yeah that everything you just said had

Women are frustrated

29:19

me thinking about so we've had a lot of women on so we're so grateful to you have to have you on because we want not

29:25

only are you a dating coach and have your exper in the space um but you're male and we want male perspective and so

29:33

women have a lot of and I'm sure you hear from your f female clients I'm curious to hear what they they say to

29:39

you about their frustrations with with men but I think that's part of it is

29:44

that there's so much frustration with men in how they show up don't show up

29:50

communicate don't communicate that it does feel like well how dare he do this

29:57

and and maybe not enough like reflection on self but women are frustrated women

30:03

are very frustrated and so we in our position have to do two things simultaneously you need to validate

30:09

someone's experience if you're frustrated I understand you're not alone

30:15

yeah it's kind of a show out there right that's true there are a lot of people who are incapable of the kind of

30:21

relationship that you're worthy of and I need you to keep your standards high and let's just say 90% of men are in capable

30:27

of it so now we're not going to be too surprised by it we're not going to be too surprised when we throw through nine out of 10 guys and pass we're not going

30:34

to be too surprised that nine out of 10 guys you text are not your guy great now we've set re reasonable expectations so

30:40

it's not so surprising or debilitating next next next not my guy not my guy not

30:45

my guy there's the validation given that what are we going to do to get one out

30:51

of 10 guys into the hopper and give that conversation a shot

30:57

and how are we going to understand that your experience is only 50% of the equation and if you talk to a 100 men

31:04

and you ask them to talk about their dating experience with women their Litany of complaints would be just as

31:09

long as yours and just as valid as yours what do you think some of their complaints are I'm gonna turn that on

31:16

you you're asking me to say what some of what do you think cuz remember if you're

31:23

a heterosexual woman and you date men who breaks your heart heterosexual men if you're a man and I'm

31:31

going to pretend to be a man for a second when I went out with 300 people

31:36

right could I have been the bad guy every time is it possible a whole bunch

31:42

of people that I went out with weren't really knew what they were looking for didn't act with Integrity so

31:51

so if you're dating whoever whatever sex or gender

31:56

you're dating they're going to be the people who seem like they're doing you wrong like they're your adversaries and they're not

32:02

they're just on their path trying to figure out why is it so hard to find someone so let's stop demonizing an

32:10

entire sex as if no no no I want to be clear I wasn't

32:16

saying they should not have I I am with you like there's two there's two people involved in the equation and I always

32:22

try to remind my female clients who kind of like might get stuck in old dating roles like they should lead they should

32:29

ask for the second date they should express interest first and sort of sit back and let the guy do with that

32:34

without without asking them back out or so I want to be clear like I I think

32:40

everyone comes with their own insecurities their own frustrations and rightfully so I just think there's like

32:48

women are I don't think either side is normalizing that or or giving each other Grace in in that space I I agree it was

32:56

I'm only reacting to the wait so there men have complaints about dating too

33:02

like no no I know they do I'm just curious what they are I'm just curious and women are curious how much time do

33:07

you got as much time as you no actually my son comes home at six so if you're a

33:13

men and you're on Tinder right you're swiping right on at least 50% of women you know what

33:19

percentage of men women swipe right on less than 5% so the male rejection rate

33:24

UPF front is over 90% no woman's ever experienced the amount of rejection that

33:29

men experience No Such Thing men get rejected far more and they are the

33:36

initiators they're the ones again unless it's Bumble what men are initiating they're swiping they're texting they're

33:42

saying hi they may not be doing a great job they're they're I'm not defending bad male behavior I'm not defending

33:48

dicks piics I'm not defending crappy profiles I'm only pointing out he puts out a ton of energy and he might have to

33:55

swipe right on a hundred women to get 10 of them to acknowledge Him see I don't think women know that I really don't

34:03

that's why we're having this conversation yeah I know this is why this is important so here's the story

34:08

there's no good men out there that's the narrative right that's the predominant societal n narrative there's no good men

34:15

okay so I'll Grant you there's a whole bunch of guys who are not worthy and not arguing with that there are good men

34:21

they're online but who gets all the attention tiny tiny percentage of men

34:28

everybody else is blocked out there's an old OK Cupid study that talks about this

34:35

women find 80% of men to be below average that means 80% of men are in the

34:40

bottom 50th percentile oh yeah got to open our

34:46

parameters that's to start now if you're that guy and you finally got 10 women to

34:53

swipe right on you does that mean anything nope because she's got a lot

34:58

more options than you do so what does that mean she could afford to be pickier than you do which means who's she gonna

35:06

go for six feet tall six figures Charming is he a nice guy not

35:12

necessarily is emotionally available not necessarily but you're the second third tier guy if all else fails she's playing

35:22

up so all the women pay attention to the top 5% of men and then they say why are

35:29

guys not paying attention to me you just ignored 95% of them you're focused on the 5% how many people could get the top

35:35

five% of men the number the math doesn't work I think what happens too though and

Why do women hear this

35:41

going back to what we're saying these narratives of settling I think and I'm just try you know I'm not single anymore

35:47

I've been in R for a while but I just try to think about what women might hear when they're hearing this and that being

35:53

why why can't I have all of those things why do I have to let go of the six foot

35:59

successful here's why here's why math tell us the math do you know what

36:06

percentage of men are over six feet tall Beth I do not

36:11

14% oh my God so 86% of men are not six feet tall so let's just Lop all of them

36:18

off okay now we're starting our dating pool before any other factors we're starting with 14% of men now have we

36:26

factored in any anything else that no so what percentage of men make six figures about 10% okay so it's 14.14 times 0.1

36:36

great now he's six feet tall and he makes six figures now he needs to have a college education that's 35% of men

36:42

Masters 10% doctorate one to two% of men

36:48

great we've just accomplished those things we haven't talked about whether he's funny we haven't talked about

36:53

whether he's nice we haven't talked about whether he wants marriage we haven't talked about whether he respects women we haven't talked about whether

36:58

he's a good communicator so we start we women start our dating pool at 0.001% of

37:04

men and wonder why are there no men oh my gosh you just answer your own

37:10

question the math doesn't work I got clients who are like but he has to be Jewish okay that's 1.7% of America

37:20

1.7% he has to be a vegan what percentage of men are vegan less than one I'm guessing

37:27

so we could go on and on but this this is the problem here is we think we need to date the opposite sex version of

37:33

ourselves and we don't that is the death nail yeah well with those numbers for sure you don't give yourself a chance at

37:40

all right and so people hear this and they say they hear settling and I'm I've

37:45

never said the word subtle right you okay yeah yeah but that's so inra that's

37:51

yeah I think that's a hard narrative for women to let go of it's a Nuance concept so I would I would post POS the question

37:57

to anybody listening would you rather be alone for the rest of your

38:03

life or date a guy who is 5'9 would you rather be alone for the rest of your

38:09

life or date a guy who's got a little bit of a belly would you rather be alone for the rest of your life or date a guy

38:16

who makes 80 grand when you make 120 you those are your choices yeah if

38:22

you refuse to compromise on anything well that's perf that's a perfectly viable choice I will not

38:29

settle I will not give up on any of these things and so then what happens they go for that small percentage of guy

38:35

who seems like he has everything on paper and he's a narcissist who won't commit to you what treats you like

When women and I speak for ourselves

38:42

I think the other thing that happens is when they when women and I'll speak for myself I I'll just speak for

38:48

myself um when I met when I met Rob he was all these things that I

38:54

didn't think I or didn't realize I I wanted or needed or liked like all the things that you're saying like kind Comm

39:02

Comfort safety I mean I thought I thought I was looking for those things but I didn't I was I wasn't getting

39:08

those things and so I think sometimes we think we know what we

39:15

want when in actuality there's things we're missing or overlooking that we don't even realize would be more

39:21

important than the height and the money and the here so when you say how do you

39:27

get people to do this you ask them to talk about their

39:32

life experience no one calls a dating coach to say I'm so happy I just wanted to let

39:39

you know stranger on the internet I'm so happy in my relationship people only

39:44

contact me after their seven-year relationship went South after they got out of their 25 year marriage after they

39:50

ghosted four times in a row this is the only time people reach out to me what's the common thread

39:57

that man wasn't meeting your emotional needs no matter how in love you were no matter how much chemistry no matter how

40:03

good he was on paper so that's all the evidence we need that we need to change

40:08

our decision-making criteria and shift it to character-based things and then

40:14

the other stuff becomes a bonus I'm not anti- six foot tall guy I'm not anti-r guy I'm not anti blinding chemistry it's

40:21

all wonderful feelings none of that will make you happy for the next 40 years

Working with men

40:27

none of it uh I'm curious I want to ask a couple couple more things before we wrap up just to go back to the top so

40:33

exclusively working with women have you ever worked with men yeah first uh first

40:39

five years of my career uh when there was no such thing as a dating coach I called myself a dating coach called

40:44

myself America's leading dating expert because nobody else had um just kind of hung it out there and 80% of the people

40:52

who turned to me were women I didn't ask for women so so here's something which

40:57

again you know I I I you may be hearing a defense of men or an observation of men right here's one way we could throw

41:05

men under the bus men need a lot of help with dating and relationships they don't

41:10

ask that lack of curiosity that lack of self-awareness is indeed a problem but I

41:18

can't change that problem I've had women be like why don't you fix men if they pay me to I would but they're not paying

41:24

me to so my job is not to fix my entire sex my job is to help you choose better

41:30

men instead of how do I wave a magic wand over men in America yeah and if

41:36

they're not asking for why do you think they're not asking for help I think that there's a there's something between a

41:42

biological and a sociological component I think in general um men uh driven by

41:50

testosterone are more likely and again these are things that it's unassailable who's more likely to commit

41:58

sexual assault who's more likely to get into a fight who's more likely to be a serial killer who's more likely to go to

42:04

war right men are different than women whether we allowed to say that or not

42:09

certainly they are in the bad ways right think the bad ways men are definitely so so if we could say men are different

42:15

than women it shouldn't be terribly surprising that men who are less agreeable more aggressive are more

42:23

likely to be kind of blinded and pigheaded and they don't like to be told what to do right someone told me this

42:29

men don't like to be directed or directed or corrected directed or corrected right it's I didn't look

42:36

around look around you see it all the time so couple breaks up

42:42

she journals she reaches out for help she goes to therapy she'll talk to a

42:47

million people what did I do wrong why did he leave me how could I fix this and he's just like man she's

42:55

crazy the lck yeah yeah I love what you're

What women can do differently

43:02

saying too because I think it still allows us as women to be the CEO of our

43:09

love life and that you know we can make choices we can make changes and we can

43:14

choose differently with the understanding that men maybe not and I know we I had a couple of my therapists

43:21

on and we were talking about John Berger's book make your move and they had a frust

43:26

with they read it as if John was saying men aren't going to do anything so you do all the work I do you want me to

43:34

chime in on that because you know I I have feelings I know you have feelings

43:39

well I'm just validating your point that you know despite what men are doing or not doing there are things that women

43:45

can still do to be successful in deeding yeah I mean there's there's a there's a

43:51

whole raft of things that people can do differently remember if you can point to

43:57

and I can tell you a dozen things that guys will do wrong on a first date right

44:03

much less a dating profile a test text message having difficult discussions dealing with sex I can micromanage the

44:10

out of men's behavior and tell them exactly what to do if you want to make a woman fall in love with you like it's

44:17

not hard if you listen to women it's not hard to deliver what women want but they're not asking me which is why

44:24

complaining about men however valid the complaints is impotent it's feudal it

44:29

gets you nowhere it might feel good to vent about the state of men or the state of bumble the state of New York City or

44:35

Seattle and at the end of the day I can't change men I can't change dating sites I can't change your age can't

44:43

change any of that how are you going to adapt to the reality of this situation

44:49

and I think it's starts with okay 90% of guys are not for me that's fine but the

44:55

10 10% it's not height weight age education income right character

45:01

kindness consistency communication that that's what the top 10% means yeah

The pressure of the biological clock

45:08

that's great okay one last question before we wrap up because this is a lot of this is a big narrative I mean this

45:13

is the the podcast is called quiet the clock and so I'm curious how many women you have worked with or are working with

45:21

that feel the pressure of the time or age or the biological clock a lot of

45:26

women that have been on here have shared their egg freezing journey and finding themselves you know 34 35 I was 37 when

45:34

I froze my eggs you know I froze in my relationship that's a different story but finding themselves there and making

45:40

that choice to preserve their fertility so do you have women that come to you

45:45

with that that pressure that time clock absolutely there's a there's a a huge

45:51

Spike when people come to me right very few women are reaching out to me in their 20s they think they've got

45:56

infinite time infinite options working on their career and not my place to argue right the calls start at 34 oh

46:06

yeah that's yep the perception of hey all the guys that I want are now looking

46:11

for me between 27 and 33 I've gotten to the other side of it a advanced maternal

46:18

age and the quality and quantity seems to have dropped right and I got to do

46:24

something so I wish we got into to this more I actually thought this is what we're going to be talking more about I

46:29

know but there's so much to talk about so would you please come back on yeah know I'm saying like like I

46:36

would I would love to get into the fertility conversation from a male perspective because again I know you all

46:43

know your perspective on it I think it's useful to hear a guy's perspective on it

46:48

because I think and again this may be controversial I don't mind being controversial I think people get the

46:55

order order wrong I think the order is find a partner with your partner figure

47:02

out how to build a family whether that is IVF whether that is surrogacy whether that is adoption there's a million ways

47:09

to do it but pour your energy into making good dating choices so that the

47:15

family building part is with someone rather than I've got my kid I've got my

47:21

embryo now I'm going to try to retrofit a guy into my life it is very very very hard to date as a single mom extremely

47:29

hard completely underestimated right that you're not really going to be able to do any dating

47:34

at least until that kid's in elementary school so you're putting your life on hold for a really long time to have a biological kid and taking on the hardest

47:41

job in the world to be a working single mother so I always encourage people to

47:46

put their love life first even though there's the sense of panic put love first and with your partner you'll be

47:53

able to do great things h well I would if you have the time I would love to have you back on and just focus more on

Outro

47:59

a conversation like that because I think everything you shared today is so valuable to our audience but I think that would also be really valuable too

48:06

and there's so much to talk about so we we took up all our time on other things but um I know that's the demographic you

48:13

work with is strong successful women and I think that's a lot of the women that find themselves 34 35 unpartnered

48:19

thinking about egg freezing to preserve fertility so I'd love to have you back and have that conversation too I'm I I'm

48:26

delighted thank you for giving me the opportunity to to share what what I know and um I'm I'm just very grateful and

48:33

clearly passionate about this I only want what's best for my clients this is not me trying to impose my patriarchal

48:40

values on you it is simply hey if the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over right dating online

48:47

the same way over and over swiping texting hooking up keeping your fingers crossed choosing guys who look great on

48:53

paper but treat you poorly there needs to be a different way to go about it that's more effective more powerful and

48:59

gets you the love that you deserve yeah and everyone wants everyone deserves the love that they want so I think you're

49:05

doing incredible work I appreciate everything you shared with us here and I hope to have you back soon hey before

49:11

you go I got a gift for your listeners oh tell yes and also tell everybody where they can find you you have so many

49:16

great resources on your website books sure yeah I mean my name is Evan Mark Catz evb an m r c k a TZ I'm on Mar

49:25

cats.com I have a podcast called the love you podcast I've got a substack called loveing um I'm on every social

49:32

media uh platform real 11 Mark cats on Instagram um but for your listeners who

49:38

want a free gift I created something for you it's called Uh the seven massive mistakes you're making in dating uh if

49:44

you go to if you go to Evar cats.com quiet um you can download that free uh

49:52

25 page report and it's got a few ha aha moments in there where you're like oh my God I'm doing like three out of seven of

49:59

these things and I had no idea that I was accidentally sabotaging myself so I'll send you free dating and

50:05

relationship advice in perpetuity thank you so much that will be very helpful for th for th for those who were dating

50:12

uh hopefully it makes a difference in your life uh regardless of whether you ever hire me I'm not worried about that

50:18

I just want to be I just want to be a positive impact awesome awesome well you

50:23

have been for us here tonight so thank you so much for your time and we hope to speak to you again soon if you like the episodes that you're hearing and you

50:29

want to hear more please subscribe to our Channel and stay tuned for more incredible stories and tools when I

50:35

froze my eggs at 37 I felt alone I felt unsure I felt confused and uncertain and

50:42

when you're considering such a big decision feeling those ways do not feel good so we have created a step-by-step

50:50

guide to egg freezing so no one else has to feel that way if you are considering egg freezing if you're curious about

50:57

what the process looks like or what you should be thinking about then this guide is for you we were really thoughtful and

51:03

how we put it together I think it's a great guide I think it's really comprehensive and covers a lot of the

51:09

things to be thinking about to be considering and maybe some things you didn't even realize you should be thinking about or considering um the

51:16

goal is to not let have anyone feel alone in this journey so if you again if

51:21

you're thinking about this decision sign up through our website bythe clock.com and make sure to follow us on Instagram

51:28

and Tik Tok at byth clock pod this is a very big decision so I don't want anyone

51:33

to feel alone in it so if you're thinking about it grab this guide and you can also DM me with any questions

51:39

I'm here to support you through this decision in this journey

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